What is "Doo Wop?"

[Al Alven]

Just for the sake of discussion, what, exactly, is your definition or interpretation of "Doo Wop," as the term relates to the Wildwoods?

[thelastresort]

Pretty much anything post WWII and pre-British Invasion. So the culture spanning from post 1945 through 1963.

[Al Alven]

Thanks for leading off the discussion here, lastresort.

A few quick questions based on your response:

- Is the Golden Nugget (built in 1960) "Doo Wop?"

- Would you consider anything built after the early/mid 60s to be "Doo Wop?" How about some of the larger motels built closer to the 70s, like the Acropolis or the Royal Hawaiian?

- Are there any particular structures/businesses that were built during the timeframe you defined (1945-63) in the Wildwoods that you would not consider being "Doo Wop?"

I'm also interested in hearing your exact reasoning on why you have the Doo Wop "cutoff" at 1963. Obviously, the British Invasion had a major historical impact on our culture. Just how significant do you feel that "event" was in shaping the years that followed?

[hulk007]

anything 50's=doo wop

[Al Alven]

hulk007 said:

anything 50's=doo wop

Hulk -- so, are you implying that anything "60s" (or beyond) is not Doo Wop? Or am I reading too much into that?

[thelastresort]

alalven said:

Thanks for leading off the discussion here, lastresort.

A few quick questions based on your response:

- Is the Golden Nugget (built in 1960) "Doo Wop?"

- Would you consider anything built after the early/mid 60s to be "Doo Wop?" How about some of the larger motels built closer to the 70s, like the Acropolis or the Royal Hawaiian?

- Are there any particular structures/businesses that were built during the timeframe you defined (1945-63) in the Wildwoods that you would not consider being "Doo Wop?"

I'm also interested in hearing your exact reasoning on why you have the Doo Wop "cutoff" at 1963. Obviously, the British Invasion had a major historical impact on our culture. Just how significant do you feel that "event" was in shaping the years that followed?

Wow, Al, ok, let's see if I can answer your questions. I guess what I meant by "anything 1945-63" is something that reflected the culture of that era, more of a "state of mind". I'm much more into things being genuine instead of being replicas, but if something is trying to look like it is from that era, then I suppose it would be "doo wop". Something built in 2005 that looks 50's-ish would be "doo wop style". Likewise, something built in 1955 that looks like a highrise or square lackluster office building would just be "an old building". Something like the Caribbean built in 1958 and having doo wop design is the "classic doo wop" and the best of all worlds, in my mind.


So here it goes---

Q1 -- The Nugget -- I suppose by it's date that would be "doo wop era" but not "doo wop style". I think the Nugget is basically a timeless design, or is intended I suppose to mimic the old west, so I would say not "doo wop"

Q2 -- Acropolis or the Royal Hawaiian? I suppose if they were trying to copy the era, even if built afterward, they would be "doo wop style".

Q3 -- not sure on some of the dates, but take the Newport for example. It probably was built in the 70's, but even if it was built in 1958, I would not consider it "doo wop". As with the Nugget as mention in Q1

Q4 -- I think I've touched on this before. Although I was born in the early 60's, I consider myself somewhat of an historian (at least as a hobby).

Did it start in 1945? Who knows, I just think that when the guys returned from the war and started "taking to the road" for vacation, and the advent of the interstates in the 50's, is what I would consider "doo wop".

Likewise, I don't think when everyone woke up on Monday, February 10, 1964 after having just watched the Beatles on Ed Sullivan the night before, they said "ok, it's a new era". It was more of an evolution over maybe 2 years, starting with the 3 gunshots in Dallas, and the four lads from Liverpool, and the other influences of Dylan, Peter Paul & Mary, British Invasion Groups, Vietnam, "the Great Society", etc. In my mind, 1966 or 67 is clearly "not doo wop", and 1961 or 62 clearly is, we can haggle about where to draw the line in the sand. I would put it at the end of 1963, since JFK and the Beatles were such seminal events and it's easy to attach a date to them. Others might put it at the end of 1964 or 65. No doubt, by 1968, it was gone.

So I suppose it started ramping up after the war, had it's heyday from like 1955-1963, then dropped off and was dead by 1968.

[mickeyfinz]

With the excepion of the WW's, Doo Wop pertains to a special style of music. In that vein I would like to take a stab at an answer. When asked, I say Doo Wop is music with a background that can stand on it's own. It may be a stretch, but my favorite Doo Wop songs fall ito that category. One of my pet peeves is when a WW radio station plays a jingle welcoming you to "The Doo Wop Capital of The World" and then goes ito an Elvis ot Jackie Wilson song. (Jackie Wilson WAS Doo Wop when he sang with Billy Ward and The Dominoes, but not alone)
To try an answer to your Q, I guess anything else (clothing, buildings, cars) that was popular whan that music was popular fall into "The Doo Wop" Age.
Like the license plate on Stephen King's Christine (The Book ONLY) read: "Rock and Roll Will Never Die".

[JerseyDigger29]

As a musician with a college education in Music Composition, I would respectfully disagree with the 1945 date. Late 45, with the end of the wars in Europe and in Japan is when the boys began coming home and fathering all the baby boomers. But musically, the late forties was still a mish-mash of Swing, Boogie-Woogie, Jump Blues, and Hoy-Hoy.

During the late forties - and keep in mind that historical eras don't stop or start on a dime, they tend to phase in and out over a period of years as one style fades out and the new one begins to catch hold - the Dorsey, Glen Miller, Louis Prima Big Bands, etc., were still headlining at the Starlight Ballroom. (For proof, check out the newspaper ads in microfilm at the Boyer Museum).

Louis Jordan, one of the major early influences on Rock and Roll was still topping the bill at the Surf Club as late as 47 and 48. ("Choo-choo, che-boogie" and "Caldonia." were classics of boogie woogie). His songs were influencial on Rock and Roll but they were mostly, and clearly, boogie-woogie.

I think I have proved in earlier posts that the first clearly rock and roll song was released in 1948 by Wynonie Harris). Fats Domino, one of the originators of Rock and Roll began to appear about 1950 with the song "The Fat Man," etc.

The late 40's till about 50 or so were the beginnings of rock and roll. But Doo Wop, I firmly believe, begins with the vocal groups of the early 50's who started inventing all those goofy words and substituting them for lyrics. You know, "Doo Wop diddy diddy dum diddy day," etc.

Vocally, the late 40's was the beginning of the end for groups like the Mills Brothers, the Ames Brothers, etc. Rock and roll groups like the Treniers began to take over around 49 and 50. But for Doo Wop, I believe it clearly started with the vocal groups of the early 50's.

I hope you see my point about how musical eras tend to phase in and out over a period of years. (Hence the confusion when we try to pin down specific dates. It can't be done! It will always be a generality).

Now, as for the question of what is Doo Wop as it applies to architecture in the Wildwoods: I have always had a question of whether the DWPL has limited (?) itself to mostly hotels - mainly in the Crest and neglected other parts of the island or other types of buildings.

I agree that the Golden Nuggett could be considered Doo Wop because of (1) it's 1960 birthdate smack in the middle of the Doo Wop era, and (2) because of its design which is meant to transport riders ro exotic far-off destinations. But I also think that the term shouldn't only apply to hotels or the two reasons I just gave.

I personally think Doo Wop should also apply to style, garishness, boldness, outrageousness, inventiveness, and outright "architectural b+lls!"

For this reason, I have included some photos of local landmarks below that I would argue are also Doo Wop, (1) because they meet the general time frame and (2) because of all the design elements I just mentioned. The DWPL describes Laura's Fudge in a brochure as being "Neo-doo wop."

Doo Wop is Doo Wop as far as I'm concerned if the building falls within my timeframe of 1950 to "approximately" 65 or 66."

To be classified as "neo" doo wop there needs to be a period in between doo wop and neo doo wop that wasn't either/or. Therefore neo could have begun, say, about the late 90's to now. (Examples are easy, Commerce Bank sign, Wawa, the new Acme, Coastal Broadcasting. I think these are all neo, but the following landmarks IMO are clearly Doo Wop unless someone convinces me otherwise.

Enjoy the pics and you decide - Thom

TheWildwoodsReporter.com
[e-mail]

[thelastresort]

Great pics JD29, thanks, and thanks for the comments, very interesting. I guess we agree on the "end of doo wop" (1965, give or take).

Perhaps all the varying opinions give some credence as to why the term "doo wop preservation league" might be too narrow, as was suggested by many before. Something like "WW historical preservation league" is probably more appropriate, since it advocates preservation but does not alienate the swing era and Victorian era, to name a few.

[Al Alven]

thelastresort said:

Wow, Al, ok, let's see if I can answer your questions. I guess what I meant by "anything 1945-63" is something that reflected the culture of that era, more of a "state of mind". I'm much more into things being genuine instead of being replicas, but if something is trying to look like it is from that era, then I suppose it would be "doo wop". Something built in 2005 that looks 50's-ish would be "doo wop style". Likewise, something built in 1955 that looks like a highrise or square lackluster office building would just be "an old building". Something like the Caribbean built in 1958 and having doo wop design is the "classic doo wop" and the best of all worlds, in my mind.


So here it goes---

Q1 -- The Nugget -- I suppose by it's date that would be "doo wop era" but not "doo wop style". I think the Nugget is basically a timeless design, or is intended I suppose to mimic the old west, so I would say not "doo wop"

Q2 -- Acropolis or the Royal Hawaiian? I suppose if they were trying to copy the era, even if built afterward, they would be "doo wop style".

Q3 -- not sure on some of the dates, but take the Newport for example. It probably was built in the 70's, but even if it was built in 1958, I would not consider it "doo wop". As with the Nugget as mention in Q1

Q4 -- I think I've touched on this before. Although I was born in the early 60's, I consider myself somewhat of an historian (at least as a hobby).

Did it start in 1945? Who knows, I just think that when the guys returned from the war and started "taking to the road" for vacation, and the advent of the interstates in the 50's, is what I would consider "doo wop".

Likewise, I don't think when everyone woke up on Monday, February 10, 1964 after having just watched the Beatles on Ed Sullivan the night before, they said "ok, it's a new era". It was more of an evolution over maybe 2 years, starting with the 3 gunshots in Dallas, and the four lads from Liverpool, and the other influences of Dylan, Peter Paul & Mary, British Invasion Groups, Vietnam, "the Great Society", etc. In my mind, 1966 or 67 is clearly "not doo wop", and 1961 or 62 clearly is, we can haggle about where to draw the line in the sand. I would put it at the end of 1963, since JFK and the Beatles were such seminal events and it's easy to attach a date to them. Others might put it at the end of 1964 or 65. No doubt, by 1968, it was gone.

So I suppose it started ramping up after the war, had it's heyday from like 1955-1963, then dropped off and was dead by 1968.

This is quickly becoming exactly the kind of informative and enlightening discussion I thought it would. Tremendous!

Thanks, lastresort, for answering all my questions. I’ll come clean and admit that the whole purpose of this little exercise was simply to try to clear up all of the grey area, the confusion that surrounds the concept of “Doo Wop.” The only real way to do that, and to even begin to formulate a definition for what the term stands for is to draw out our pre-existing impressions of it.

There’s obviously no right or wrong answers here. “Doo Wop” is not a black and white concept. What might be “Doo Wop” to someone might just be another building to someone else. But by fleshing all of this out, I believe that we might be able to find some middle ground and at least come to some common understandings.

I tend to agree with most of your opinions here, actually. The only one I might differ on is the Golden Nugget. As Thom mentioned, the Nugget was built smack in the middle of the “Doo Wop” era, but also was designed as something of a “fantasy ride” that transported riders to a far off and exotic location.

(Not unlike the motels themselves, which whisked us off to the Caribbean, to Hawaii, Singapore, the Sahara, Ancient Greece and so many other distant lands.)

Not only that, but the Nugget is a pure reflection of the popular culture of its day. Westerns were a major part of the entertainment fabric at that time, dominating television and movies to an extent. While I do agree, lastresort, that the Nugget’s design is “timeless” to a degree, I also feel that the theme was likely chosen by the Hunts due to the pop trend of that time.

Anyway, for the record, my rough definition of “Doo Wop” goes something like this (and, yes, I know this is still an extremely vague work-in-progress):

Any structure with an architectural design (or defining singular element) that represents or can be connected to the bold and inventive mentality that developed in the Wildwoods during the “boom” years that followed WWII.

Now, that “bold and inventive” mentality bit obviously covers a ton of ground. In a nutshell, though, I’m referring to the Wildwoods’ own, unique take on a variety of “traditional” 1950s architectural traits. The U.S. underwent a tremendous building boom after the war, but the Wildwoods ultimately emerged as something completely different in a sea of sameness.

Thus, I feel that any structure on the island that truly represents or at least echoes that “original” sentiment deserves the continued labeling of being “Doo Wop.”

Thoughts?

[Al Alven]

jerseydigger29 said:

As a musician with a college education in Music Composition, I would respectfully disagree with the 1945 date. Late 45, with the end of the wars in Europe and in Japan is when the boys began coming home and fathering all the baby boomers. But musically, the late forties was still a mish-mash of Swing, Boogie-Woogie, Jump Blues, and Hoy-Hoy.

During the late forties - and keep in mind that historical eras don't stop or start on a dime, they tend to phase in and out over a period of years as one style fades out and the new one begins to catch hold - the Dorsey, Glen Miller, Louis Prima Big Bands, etc., were still headlining at the Starlight Ballroom. (For proof, check out the newspaper ads in microfilm at the Boyer Museum).

Louis Jordan, one of the major early influences on Rock and Roll was still topping the bill at the Surf Club as late as 47 and 48. ("Choo-choo, che-boogie" and "Caldonia." were classics of boogie woogie). His songs were influencial on Rock and Roll but they were mostly, and clearly, boogie-woogie.

I think I have proved in earlier posts that the first clearly rock and roll song was released in 1948 by Wynonie Harris). Fats Domino, one of the originators of Rock and Roll began to appear about 1950 with the song "The Fat Man," etc.

The late 40's till about 50 or so were the beginnings of rock and roll. But Doo Wop, I firmly believe, begins with the vocal groups of the early 50's who started inventing all those goofy words and substituting them for lyrics. You know, "Doo Wop diddy diddy dum diddy day," etc.

Vocally, the late 40's was the beginning of the end for groups like the Mills Brothers, the Ames Brothers, etc. Rock and roll groups like the Treniers began to take over around 49 and 50. But for Doo Wop, I believe it clearly started with the vocal groups of the early 50's.

I hope you see my point about how musical eras tend to phase in and out over a period of years. (Hence the confusion when we try to pin down specific dates. It can't be done! It will always be a generality).

Now, as for the question of what is Doo Wop as it applies to architecture in the Wildwoods: I have always had a question of whether the DWPL has limited (?) itself to mostly hotels - mainly in the Crest and neglected other parts of the island or other types of buildings.

I agree that the Golden Nuggett could be considered Doo Wop because of (1) it's 1960 birthdate smack in the middle of the Doo Wop era, and (2) because of its design which is meant to transport riders ro exotic far-off destinations. But I also think that the term shouldn't only apply to hotels or the two reasons I just gave.

I personally think Doo Wop should also apply to style, garishness, boldness, outrageousness, inventiveness, and outright "architectural b+lls!"

For this reason, I have included some photos of local landmarks below that I would argue are also Doo Wop, (1) because they meet the general time frame and (2) because of all the design elements I just mentioned. The DWPL describes Laura's Fudge in a brochure as being "Neo-doo wop."

Doo Wop is Doo Wop as far as I'm concerned if the building falls within my timeframe of 1950 to "approximately" 65 or 66."

To be classified as "neo" doo wop there needs to be a period in between doo wop and neo doo wop that wasn't either/or. Therefore neo could have begun, say, about the late 90's to now. (Examples are easy, Commerce Bank sign, Wawa, the new Acme, Coastal Broadcasting. I think these are all neo, but the following landmarks...

Fascinating post, Thom. I would have to agree with your opinion about the DWPL perhaps limiting its interests a bit narrowly toward the older motels. Of course, those same motels were (are?) the most endangered entities on the island, so that focus really does make sense.

Regardless, I do feel that many buildings/businesses that could benefit by being recognized as “Doo Wop” structures have been neglected in that way. I personally agree also with your essential definition of the term, Thom – that general time frames and eras are not as important as actual substance in determining whether or not something is “Doo Wop.”

The examples you gave were excellent. I can’t imagine anyone not putting Laura’s Fudge high on their list of Doo Wop icons. How could you not?

The others all represent the unique reputation of the Wildwoods in different ways. I had never really thought of the Red Oak as being “Doo Wop,” but it could fit the bill. What do you feel about Schellenger’s Restaurant on Atlantic Ave., or A&LP Foods on New Jersey Ave. in North Wildwood?

I guess the only problem I run into when trying to define these buildings in this way is determining what isn’t “Doo Wop.” This is where it becomes tricky, because just about every entity in the Wildwoods is unique in some way… but surely not everything (or, let’s just say everything after 1950-ish) can be “Doo Wop.”

Shifting gears a bit, with regard to the term “Neo” Doo Wop…

I tend to think of the creation of the Starlux (in 2000, I believe?) as the dawn of Neo Doo Wop. It seems to me that the transformation of the old Wingate Motel was the first real, truly inventive architectural move made in the Wildwoods in many, many years (decades, perhaps).

The new motel’s design was also a clear, clean “revisionist” nod to classic 50s/Wildwood architecture, and was directly responsible for spawning the construction of the many retro-fitted structures that have popped up since.

The Starlux is the granddaddy of “Neo” Doo Wop, and it’s very inception spawned an era unto itself in the Wildwoods, IMO.

[Doowopper]

This topic really got me thinking into what I consider Doo-Wop.

It's hard not to mix in old places, like the Captains Table, which I would not consider Doo-Wop. There weren't dramatic angles, there was no neon, there were no bright colors, no exotic name, etc. I considered the Captains table as an old salty classic beachtown resturaunt. I think "Wildwood Preservation" as opposed to just "doo-wop" would be helpful. While in my opinion not Doo-Wop, the Captains Table was a wonderful classic place to go eat. Now some ritzy private condominium is coming. Kind of makes the area seem more UN-welcoming to tourists.

I agree with Thom's time frame on the buildings as being doo-wop, and neo-doo wop. I see no reason why other institutions, besides motels cannot be doo-wop. Laura's Fudge, Mr. D's etc. all scream Wildwood Doo-Wop. Neon, angles/weird shapes, color. They have it all.

I consider all of the old chromed out diners to be doo-wop as well, even if they are in a totally non-doo-wop enviroment. There are some truely wonderful classic diners up past Freehold on Route 9. There is also a Regal Movie theater that's entire facade is covered in neon. I wish some places like these could find there way to the Wilwoods!

[Al Alven]

Excellent points, Doowopper, although I think I might be able to dig up a few photos that might change your mind about the Captain's Table.

The CT actually featured a number of classic "50s" architectural traits, the most noteworthy of which was the triagular shaped, pertruding canopy on the east side (main entrance) of the restaurant.

The building itself was actually designed to look like a ship, though it was really tough to visualize this concept unless you saw an aerial or satellite shot of the structure. Check out Google Earth and you'll see what I mean.

Just some quick thoughts.

[writhinganacondo]

- The CT on google looks like a 50's sci-fi rocket ship on its side as well, ready to blast off into the sea. Many overlooked this because it acquired all that nautical trim over the years.
-Great pic of Mr. D's, thanks...
-For those wanting to view opinions on the definition of mid-century modernism, plenty awaits you on this topic at LottaLiving or Tiki Central, etc. No where will you find the term doowop applied to architecture, though the doowop music era did abruptly end about the same time the true funky post -WW II design fell out of fashion.

[Al Alven]

writhinganacondo said:

- The CT on google looks like a 50's sci-fi rocket ship on its side as well, ready to blast off into the sea. Many overlooked this because it acquired all that nautical trim over the years.
-Great pic of Mr. D's, thanks...
-For those wanting to view opinions on the definition of mid-century modernism, plenty awaits you on this topic at LottaLiving or Tiki Central, etc. No where will you find the term doowop applied to architecture, though the doowop music era did abruptly end about the same time the true funky post -WW II design fell out of fashion.

writhing, do you know whether or not the Captain's Table ever went by another name?

On my most recent trip to the Boyer Museum, I got into a conversation with another visitor from western PA. He was probably in his late-60s or so, and told me he used to vacation for two weeks every summer in the Crest.

Anyway, we got to talking about the Captain's Table and I mentioned the ship/rocket-looking design of the structure from above, and he told me he was fairly certain that the restaurant had a different name originally.

I have never heard of this, but was just wondering if you (or anyone else knew for sure. Mr. Bright was not at the museum at the time, and the woman working there that day had no knowledge of this.