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Post by fuzzyscorpio on Oct 20, 2006 22:28:18 GMT -5
Fuzzy, Don't read too much into what I'm saying... it's all just my opinion, and nothing more... As I think everyone on this board could attest to, I am more than open to discussion, debate and even controversy... it's good for this board, and its good for Wildwood... by no means will this change on the new forum... by "closer moderation" I mean keeping some of the off-topic personal rants, attacks and tangents to a minimum... Your thoughts on the high-rise situation are welcomed. As I know we have somewhat of a split on this forum (and within the DWPL in general) regarding this issue, if anything, I was hoping to stir up some good debate with my post. As you can tell, I am personally in support of the "go for the gusto" development (when it comes to hotel/tourism-friendly development, not residential sprawl, and not at the expense of the still-well-preserved motel districts in WW Crest), while acknowledging its potential pitfalls and risks. I welcome other, conflicting opinions and look forward to hearing them, as I'm sure we all do. It's a pet peeve of mine (and another reason for my post) that there has been a recent trend in the local media to equate the proposed high-rise development in Wildwood with being the antithesis of the Doo Wop preservation movement (which has always focused more on the motel district in WW Crest) and that is simply not the case. As for the socioeconomic issues that surround all of this, yes, there are some real serious challenges the Wildwoods have to face and deal with regarding keeping the island affordable for a wide range of residents and tourists. Personally, I think its just as self-defeating to say Wildwood should always remain nothing more than an exclusively blue-collar resort, as it would be to say Wildwood should suddenly become an exclusively upscale place. Wildwood shouldn't be exclusive one way or the other. We have a unique opportunity to strike a balance not commonly found on the Jersey Shore. Traditional motels, upgraded boutique motels, new more luxurious high-rise hotels and a wide range of condo/residential options. That's what I'm hoping for. The goals of the DWPL in preserving architecture and style would coincide with preserving diversity and economic versatility on the island. -Mike D Well said, Mike, and reassuring. Thanks. About your vision of "traditional motels, upgraded boutique motels, new more luxurious high-rise hotels and a wide range of condo/residential options" (akin to the mix that Wildre spoke of)--my worry is that there appear to be very large question marks over the first two ingredients in that recipe. I keep hearing that the "traditional motels" can't generate enough revenue for their upkeep, so I expect to see their owners continuing to bail out and their buyers continuing to opt for demolition. The island does have a few "upgraded boutique motels," but not a real trend in that direction; the concept hasn't caught fire. It appears to need incentives that aren't there, or aren't sufficient. Beyond and larger than the issues specifically related to visitor accommodations is, well, the heritage thing. I know that I need to do some homework on the state of things in the city of Wildwood so I can better understand the choices that are being made. It seems to have always had its problems, but I couldn't begin to accurately characterize them as of 2006 and I know that my objections to the highrises should be tempered by my ignorance of current civic issues. I can't help myself, though, because developments like the WB just seem so incongruous. I picture them and I cringe--especially when I think of them so close to the beach as the Oceanic is now. Possibly the sad truth is that most of their incongruous surroundings are not worth saving, or are beyond rescue. But at this point, to my eyes, the bottom line is that except for a small stretch of Ocean Ave, Wildwood Crest and North Wildwood have been pretty thoroughly raped by the developers, and all that stands in the way of total obliteration of the island's midcentury character and heritage is Wildwood itself. I'm sorry but I guess I do feel that getting all "Trumped up," if you will, would be the cultural antithesis of what Wildwood was for nearly all of the 50-plus years I visited it every summer.
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Post by fuzzyscorpio on Oct 20, 2006 23:07:11 GMT -5
I think it is older than Doo Wop like you said, it looks like the 40's. Maybe the people you were talking to hadn't gotten the word yet, or maye they didn't have any indication of CAFRA's decision at the time. I have to believe, though, that if a building of this size is to open in 2009, the Oceanic can't possibly be open in 2007. What do you think? These huge buildings have to take more than a year to build, I would think. Thom Yeah, I was thinking as I wrote that the official word to employees had probably changed since my conversation with them, and there likely will be no '07 season for the Oceanic
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Post by fuzzyscorpio on Oct 20, 2006 23:08:41 GMT -5
How many stories for the Wildwood Beach? Still 25? Martin - That's what the media invitation I received said: 25. It's what the Web site says, too, on the "amenities" page.
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Post by MMM on Oct 20, 2006 23:20:18 GMT -5
Still think 25 stories is overdoing things, but overall it's good to see progress on this. I just wish they could stop at around 15, if profitable. Thanks Thom.
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Post by JerseyDigger29 on Oct 21, 2006 0:18:24 GMT -5
Still think 25 stories is overdoing things, but overall it's good to see progress on this. I just wish they could stop at around 15, if profitable. Thanks Thom. Like I mentioned in my first response here, Martin, the rumor is that CAFRA will require the buildings to come down a little in height by eliminating some garage space. But like you said, that''s still a little high. North Wildwood will be discussing the approval of 150' (15 story) hotels soon. So I guess the giants in center city won't look so out of place with smaller buildings in North Wildwood. Thom
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Post by MMM on Oct 21, 2006 0:26:10 GMT -5
But 15 stories will probably look too tall in North Wildwood! They can't eliiminate much garage space if they need to provide X amount of spaces for what's being built. I guess the original plans called for quite a few extra spaces?
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Post by Screeming Machine on Oct 21, 2006 14:22:17 GMT -5
Fuzzy,...I could not agree with you more! These new condotels certainly do seem upscale. Maybe it's just me, or maybe I can speak for the rest of us folks who make less than $50,000 a year when I say that $300 a night is very much upscale. (and that would probably be the 'winter' rate). I've spent parts of the last 31 summers in Wildwood as a family oriented place for "people just like me", I could never justify spending so much money on just hotel lodging. It just boils down to opinions of people with a high amount of disposable income vs. people without such.
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Post by Al Alven on Oct 21, 2006 23:50:37 GMT -5
Very thought-provoking thread in the making here, gang. I think most know my general feelings toward the highrise “condotel” concept, so the last thing I want to do is become repetitious, spew the same old stuff and bore everyone to death in the process.
For now, I just want to throw out a little food-for-thought on the conceptions of the Wildwoods as it relates to the island’s history as either a “blue collar” or “upscale” resort. From everything I’ve learned, it’s never been exclusively one or the other. Rather, in the eras when the island has experienced the most success, the most growth and the most notoriety, a very healthy balance between both ends of the economic spectrum existed.
The prevailing notion, it seems, is that the Wildwoods were a cut-and-dried blue collar paradise during the mid-century era. But, even during the times when the island was dominated by two and three-story motels jam-packed every summer with families representative of America’s “middle class,” many “upscale” entities thrived and, in many ways, served as the collective backbone of the Wildwoods’ economic structure.
My grandparents were married shortly after my grandfather returned from the Pacific at the end of WWII. I remember them telling me stories about how they always wished they had enough money in those days to stay in one of the island’s “grand” hotels -- the Dayton, Colonial, Edgeton, Seville, Havilla and, especially, the Manor.
But, like their parents, they “settled” for the smaller cottages, rooming houses, apartments and pre-Doo Wop motels, which was really all fine and good for them. The point is, though, that while my grandparents and many others who were scraping by were unable to afford the cost of staying at some of those upscale resorts, those places still served the Wildwoods very well and contributed greatly to the image, development and evolution of the island.
I definitely believe that the Wildwood Beach or the Nouveau Wave or any other proposed modern highrise has the capacity to be the next HofBrau, which introduced the world to Bill Haley and the Comets. Or the Manor Supper Club, which served practically as a second home to entertainers like Dean Martin, Jerry Lewis and Tony Bennett for years.
My grandparents never did get to stay at the Manor, but they were thrilled when the 24th Street Motel was built right across the street from it on Surf, just so that they could sit out on the patio and gaze in awe at hotel’s majesty. I think they wound up seeing all of one show at the Supper Club, but they were very sad to hear the news when the hotel burned down in the late 60s.
Much like them, my family and I may never be able to afford a vacation at the WB, for instance. But, looking at the grand scheme, I still see the potential good a new, mega-entity like this can do for the island. The highrise concept is a gamble, no doubt, but the potential benefits far outweigh the positives that can be gained if the risks are taken and honest effort is put into making these things a success.
The highrises would, in theory, present the Wildwoods with many presentable options, from lodging, dining and entertainment perspectives, as well as the physical and practical capacity to hold more conventions, etc.
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Post by fuzzyscorpio on Oct 22, 2006 8:52:23 GMT -5
$300 a night is very much upscale. (and that would probably be the 'winter' rate). I'm afraid you're probably correct in thinking $300 would be the bottom of the rate scale. The city had better get busy pulling in some high-end convention business because in the beginning that's likely the only way hotel rooms priced at that level are gonna get filled...
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Post by fuzzyscorpio on Oct 22, 2006 9:06:46 GMT -5
So here's my idea of what any new hotel construction east of Seaview/Pacific ought to look like... eBay listing: tinyurl.com/snx2b
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Post by fuzzyscorpio on Oct 22, 2006 10:05:01 GMT -5
Apparently the promoters of the WB, in alerting the media to last night's party, have been engaging in some pretty dubious tactics... According to the New York Observer, the developer was somehow involved in the 9/11 catastrophe and the publicists have therefore suggested to the media the headline "9/11 Survivor Bets on Wildwood as a Four Seasons Destination" as a possible approach to their coverage... Classy move therealestate.observer.com/2006/10/coming-2009-wildwood-condos-plus-waterpark-and-911-exploitat.html
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Post by wildre on Oct 22, 2006 10:46:35 GMT -5
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Post by wildre on Oct 22, 2006 10:48:09 GMT -5
Thom, did you go to the "do" last night? If so I think we would all enjoy your thoughts?
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Post by Al Alven on Oct 22, 2006 10:55:59 GMT -5
Apparently the promoters of the WB, in alerting the media to last night's party, have been engaging in some pretty dubious tactics... According to the New York Observer, the developer was somehow involved in the 9/11 catastrophe and the publicists have therefore suggested to the media the headline "9/11 Survivor Bets on Wildwood as a Four Seasons Destination" as a possible approach to their coverage... Classy move therealestate.observer.com/2006/10/coming-2009-wildwood-condos-plus-waterpark-and-911-exploitat.htmlThanks for passing this along, Kathi. I don't know, as far as "exploitation" of the 9/11 tragedy, I don't think this is that bad, or serious. Suggesting the story angle that the developer survived the tragedy and is now embarking on a major project the projected scale of the WB seems fairly interesting to me, actually.
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Post by fuzzyscorpio on Oct 22, 2006 10:57:24 GMT -5
Interesting and touching post, Al, exerting the usual tempering influence from you. But I wonder if you're connecting some dots prematurely. I definitely believe that the Wildwood Beach or the Nouveau Wave or any other proposed modern highrise has the capacity to be the next HofBrau, which introduced the world to Bill Haley and the Comets. Or the Manor Supper Club, which served practically as a second home to entertainers like Dean Martin, Jerry Lewis and Tony Bennett for years. That is a lovely thought, but what signs do we have at this point of such a direction? I don't know about the other proposed highrises, but the WB Web site's "entertainment" page has this to say: When it comes to fun, Wildwood is where it all began. The town has been a landmark since the '50s, known for its rides, rollercoasters and amusements. American Bandstand made its first national telecast from here. Chubby Checker even introduced the Twist here.
At the Wildwood Beach Hotel and Resort, you'll be surrounded by great things to do. Today, the amusement park still attracts a fun-loving crowd, with three huge piers full of rides, games and two waterparks. Great restaurants offer family fare or haute cuisine, catering to every taste. The Convention Center--just steps away--hosts frequent concerts and events with world-renowned artists and entertainers. No wonder families return here, year after year, to create new memories to take home with them. If perhaps your tastes in nightlife are, well, more grown up, Atlantic City is only 45 miles away. Sounds like, as of now, they have no plans to give anything back to Wildwood in cultural terms. Just lettin' George do it... ... is what these highrises are all about, especially this one. Let's not get too starry-eyed yet I am becoming resigned to this monster. I knew its ilk was coming five years ago when I first saw the signs heralding the arrival of the convention center. For now, I leave you all with these images... discuss Source: New York ObservereBay listing: tinyurl.com/ykbu4ueBay listing: tinyurl.com/yhjo4v
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